This conversation is still interesting to me or I wouldn’t keep having it either, but I appreciate your politeness. I really enjoy a good healthy debate and rarely get to do so with someone who isn’t antagonistic or uncivil. So, let’s keep talkng.

Your personal experiences as someone who has had urges that you’ve restrained doesn’t really speak to this dynamic. All it says is that you are a normal, healthy man who knows how to treat women with respect, as if they were human beings and not sex objects, in spite of feeling attraction, urges, or what have you. You don’t feel the need to dominate other people through the vehicle of sexual conduct. That doesn’t mean that other people, most of whom are male, don’t do so. #MeToo kind of irrefutably demonstrated that. The fact that 81% of women have experience sexual harassment demonstrates that. They aren’t all hot, right? You do concede that?

I don’t understand why you would consider “mansplaining” as sexual since that is perhaps the mostly clearly power motivated example I can think of. Mansplaining, as I’m sure you know, refers to explaining something to a woman in a condescending or patronizing way. It’s to demonstrate that you as a man are more competent and typcially involves telling her about her experiences, feelings, motivations, field of expertise, etc.

And when I’m talking about sex clubs, I’m not talking about strip clubs. I’m talking about what is sometimes referred to as swinger’s club or or a lifestyle club. It’s a place where people go to be sexually open and self expressed. Sometimes people go to hookup with others, but a lot of it is to just get to be your sexual self in a safe environment, although people do have sex in the club, either in more private spaces or out in the public areas. They often have theme nights. Since you clearly haven’t already read the article of mine that I linked earlier, I’ll give you a quick recap and link some articles at the end.

One of the theme nights was men’s shirts and I wore my husband’s with a thong and a pair of high heeled shoes. I had the shirt unbuttoned to my navel. One night was vinyl and I wore a bustier that didn’t have any cups in it — in other words my breasts were entirely exposed. I matched it up with some sky high black boots. Sometimes completely naked people had sex right out in the open and others would ask to join in. I have never felt safer or more respected by men than in that atmosphere and that’s the way it is in all of those clubs all of the time. They often include a stripper pole and women will dance on them. But the response from both men and women was always to be amazed at her physical strength and control as well as her ability to evoke the erotic. We found it hot, but we didn’t need to then sexually objectify her. Women in strip clubs are still viewed as objects; women in sex clubs are not despite being just as scantily dressed. That’s why you have frequent behavior issues in the former and almost none in the latter. It’s a matter of setting a tone and reinforcing it, which is what we need to do on a societal level.

The fact that you assumed I was talking about a strip club speaks to how you don’t know what you don’t know. But I do know a lot about this topic from both experience (mine and others) and from extensive study. I haven’t yet broached with you the work of internationally known systems scientist, Riane Eisler, although I reference her work in several of my articles. It was in fact a bit of mansplaining (although on a fairly minor level) to try to tell me about what the clubs I was describing were actually like and how safe they actually were.

Sadly, your example of attempting to cause a woman to lactate involuntarily seems like a sexually motivated act of depravity as well. I don’t understand how you see that as about sexual interest or urges. They wanted to humiliate her, which is a part of dominance culture. They also wanted to point out that this is what women are for — feeding babies, which means they don’t belong in the office. It’s a clear example of dominance-related behavior escalating because there are more men present (the performative hierarchy).

How is it that someone who has studied Jordan Peterson and claims to have respect for him in many ways not seem to have an understanding of the idea of how woven into our culture dominance posturing and jostling for position truly is? I must confess, I’m confused by that. Anyway, here are two of my articles about club life. I hope you will at least skim them.

Dispelling cultural myths with research-driven stories. My favorite word is “specious.” Not fragile like a flower; fragile like a bomb! Twitter @ElleBeau

Get the Medium app

A button that says 'Download on the App Store', and if clicked it will lead you to the iOS App store
A button that says 'Get it on, Google Play', and if clicked it will lead you to the Google Play store